Dorothy Kail Remembers
On the 24th August 1996 Jack McInroy paid a visit to Dorothy Bedwell, the sister of Edgar Kail at her home in Norfolk. Mrs Bedwell was then in her late eighties, and very kindly partook in an interview about her famous brother. Her late husband Eric Bedwell, the founder of the Kroma Cricket Club, was one of the main men responsible for the rise of cricket in the Norfolk area. Her grandson Callum lives in Peckham.
What were your memories of Edgar as a person and a footballer?
I think Edgar must have been about eight years of age when I was born. So of course I enjoyed the latter part of his youth. He was there with my brothers. I mean we were a very happy family and I used to go down and watch him play at Dulwich Hamlet. Oh yes. Among the family there were never any flowers put on him or anything like that. He was just one of the family, and with six brothers he wasn’t the type to be big headed. He had a happy go lucky attitude and the only thing that he was very, very sure about was when his football bag was packed. He made sure that everything was absolutely perfect. Nearly all the boys were like that. And my father, although he was very strict, oiled Edgar’s boots and saw that the studs were alright. He was, how shall I say, we were all proud of him, but there was no show or anything like that. He just joined in, one of the family. Of course he was courting towards the latter part...
His childhood sweetheart I understand.
Yes. At school. He went to Goodrich Road High. I started my schooling there and I always thought it was Goodrich Road High because it was up a hill. But as you know Dulwich, the hamlet, lies between One Tree Hill and Dog Kennel Hill. And the school was One Tree Hill way. Dog Kennel Hill was more Camberwell, so it would be the other way. I can’t tell you the exact number but we were born in Landcroft Road off Lordship Lane. We moved down to Nutfield Road before the first world war. Yes, because by that time my other brothers had left Goodrich Road School. And I was late home one night from school, I was still attending Goodrich Road, and my father was worried about me so I was transferrred to Grove Vale School. A very good school indeed. Definitely before the first world war, that’s alI can say.
Did your brothers have to sign up for the war?
The two eldest boys Reg and Fred went. Edgar just missed as far as the age. The Second World War he just missed because he was too old. Just what he did during the war I’m afraid I don’t know, because just about that time my father had died. And I had my mother and my sister who was asthmatic, and I had my little daughter and she had hers so I had my hands filled.
He was a village policeman in Wiltshire during the Second World War.
[Kail was a village police constable stationed in Castle Combe, Wiltshire, during the Second World War.]
I think he might have been something like that, or he’d have played some part. But it was his age. But Cecil the one below him, he was called, he did go. So there were two in the First World War and three in the Second. So Edgar just missed the two.
Were you the youngest child?
Oh no. After me there was my brother Billy. And then came my sister Rosy, and the youngest one was Kenneth. He died at the beginning of this year. He was a very good batsman at cricket. He had the style of David Gower. But he got married young and had a family. By that time I think most of my elder brothers had left and gone and got married. My father had died and there was no-one to push him. If he had been alive I think we would have made him do something about it, but he didn't. I know my husband, with cricket as his game, always said he would have made a first class cricketer. But I think he thought with a young family coming along he had got enough to cope with. Though Kenneth and my sister, who were born and brought up when my father had retired and mellowed, never got the same strict upbringing as the rest of us. And believe me, this is why I always think that those who are intelligent enough to know when they have done something wrong, they get punished for it. You take it - if the punishment is carried out in an intelligent way. So although we didn’t have a lot of love for my father we had the greatest respect for him (laughs).
What would your father do if Edgar or one of the other children were naughty?
As I say he must have been about eight years of age when I was born so I missed a lot of that. I can only relate what I used to hear around the lunch table on a Sunday (laughs). You could have written no end of books. And my poor father, I can always remember this, he would be carving the meat and gradually his hands would go slower as one of the boys would relate about something that happened. And he thought he had one over them (raucous laughter). I know he was very, very quick. And there is no doubt about it that the two oldest boys - that was Reg and Fred - whatever they got into Edgar was always pulled in. And because he was quick (laughs) he was able to get away. They didn’t always score. My father scored quite a lot. You know the Sunday lunch was quite wonderful for me. For all of us really. One of the eldest boys would start you see, talking about something, and then I’d watch my father and he would just go very much slower (laughs) carving. And it would be going round in his head “So that’s what they did.” There was always something going on. The conversation I was brought up on was football. Well all sport really. And politics. My father was a Conservative. I always remember that when the women got the vote my father said, “It’s the ruination of the country.” Because in those days you see, there was no, well the wireless was coming on, no television. And I don’t suppose hardly anybody took a newspaper, so then I think probably you will just vote what the husband did. Those two, that is my father and the eldest boy, did their best - he was taking me to his meetings. My father didn’t bother about that but he took me to Parliament where I could hear debates. That was when Lady Astor and Churchill were debating? But I still hadn’t decided until one day when my eldest brother, who was married, came down and he said to me, “Now, whenever you come to any of our meetings has their ever been any trouble?” And I said “No.” And my father just very quietly said “Of course not. You wouldn’t get anybody voting Conservative carrying on like the others did.” And you know from that day onwards that decided me. His quiet way. That’s what happened, there wasn’t any bother. But as soon as the Conservatives had a meeting there was all this upheaval from the Labour. And that was years ago. So this is how it was - sport and politics. I still don’t know what Edgar would have voted. He kept it to himself.
Were you particularly close to Edgar? Did he have a favourite sister or brother?
Well I was close to all of them. The two I was closest to were Cecil and Harold because they took me with them every time. They knew very well that if any trouble came with my father I was able to verbally get them out of trouble (laughs). So I learnt a lot of tricks. I’ll relate this: I went to stay at a sister in law’s house, she wasn’t very well, and I left rather late and I came home up Lordship Lane because there were streetlights. But just about the corner where I was turning into - I forget the name but there were a lot of public houses along there - a man spoke to me. And I ran, and I could run, and as I ran down Edgar was coming home. And I said to him a man just spoke to me. With that he tore up the street (laughs). Of course in those days it was just after ten o’clock that the pubs shut, and there wasn’t the traffic or anything like that, so he possibly thought he could have spotted somebody. But he was up like a shot out of a gun. And then he had a word with my father that I should be told that I was to come home before the pubs closed. So whenever I went with friends to what we called ‘a hop’ in those days, they would be staying on, but I had to watch that clock. My father insisted that I got home. Edgar was like that. He led a full social life himself too. When he went to Glasgow, you see... (pause) That was very sad the way that my sister in law died. It was so unnecessary. I think what it was, they had this doctor friend and I suppose, I don’t know what he diagnosed, indigestion or something like that, and although she finally went into hospital and the operation was successful she weakened so much and just died because she couldn’t ... um. That was terrible and Colin his son would be about 11.
[Colin Kail was actually 16 years old when his mother died.]
Do you remember what year she died?
This is the thing with you people. You like the dates don’t you. This is what is making it so...
We could find out. Let’s work it out. He married Irene in 1926. How long after that did she have the baby?
I should think about two years at least.
Was it just before the Second World War then?
I can’t remember. She was very nice, oh lovely. You’ve seen the photographs. It was such a happy marriage and although I think he had some lady friends afterwards, he never remarried. After she died obviously he didn’t want to stay in Tintagel Crescent. He just felt he couldn’t stay in the house that they had, and he moved in to Overhill Road. He came down and we saw him, but not for quite a while after the funeral, but he came down to see mother of course because they were very close, Edgar and my mother.
Did you go to the funeral?
Well I don’t know! There’s something else, you see, some years ago I had a very serious illness. Too high blood pressure. And the doctor told me afterward, when I got better after a long time, there will be a phase in your life where you won’t be able to remember. Because the blood wasn’t going over the brain. So I had a scar. And the other day something came up to do with family and I thought that must be it. Once or twice I have tried to think back. I could never remember going to my sister’s wedding. So there is a phase that might have happened then you see. I can’t remember it. I’m sure that I went to the funeral but I can’t say to you “Yes I did.” which I would have helped you with.
[Edgar Kail’s wife, Irene, died in 1946.]
Do you remember when Edgar became interested in Dulwich Hamlet Football Club?
Not myself. The only thing I know is that while we were at Landcroft Road and he was at Goodrich Road School he wouldn’t have been so attached to the club. So it must have been in... Wouldn’t the club know about what age he was?
Some records have been lost. We do know that he came when he was about fourteen.
I know that he was always down there before he actually played.
He would go in the evenings after school or work.
Well now, although we moved to Nutfield Road he was probably still at Goodrich Road School, as two of my other brothers were. He might still have been at school when he first got interested in going down and helping in one thing and the other. And of course in those days you left school at fourteen. He left school and I know that he went straight into the whiskey firm that he was working for. Because he was happy in his life, in his job and his football that’s why he wasn’t interested in the professional clubs. My father, I think, would have liked to have seen him sign for one or two of them.
Do you recall which clubs were interested in him?
Not at all. My father wouldn’t have urged him or anything like that. Edgar was his own person. He knew what he wanted to do. There was never any dithering or anything like that. So all I can think of is that he was still at school when he first used to go down. Because although we were at Goodrich Road School we were living near Dulwich Hamlet.
The central figure at Dulwich Hamlet was a man called Pa Wilson.
Yes. All I know is this. I can remember my mother saying, not just to me, when Edgar was playing football. He’d be quite young and they were going away somewhere to play. And evidently my father had gone down just to be there to see whether he was going or not. And he heard Mr Wilson say – whether he said it to all the team or somebody singly I don’t know – “Please take care of the boy.” Edgar was a boy. He said “Take care of the boy.” And I always remember my mother repeating that. Because I suppose they were going away. He’d be quite young but he’d be playing then. So what age would he have started.
Well he was playing when he was fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. The photo in my Story of a Season book shows him at nineteen.
(Laughter) He was a veteran there I suppose! I remember seeing Mr Wilson when I used to go down to Dulwich Hamlet. Mr Wilson would have noticed that Edgar was going to do the club a lot of good. So he must have been very young anyway when he went away with the team on that occasion.
Perhaps it was when he was about sixteen. He was certainly playing against Forces teams during the war. Pa Wilson put together a team of young boys to play these Services sides, some of which include-ed professional footballers on leave. Edgar learned his trade playing against very experienced men.
Really! So he learned quite a few tricks. Again, he won a lot of medals through racing while he was at Goodrich Road. He made his name in the school there. Of course my father, although he was very strict, was always a very keen sportsman himself. Even I was running at Crystal Palace dirt track, plimsolls and so on. Edgar took me to Dulwich Park, where he used to train. He took me up there and taught me how to start a race and how to breathe properly and all that. It was funny really, because as I remember, in the home he would be quite relaxed. There was nothing nervous about him. But he turned quickly. Suddenly it would be “Got to get up.” ever so quickly. I know my father could never catch him.
Part of Edgar’s skill as a footballer was his quick turn of pace, very speedy.
Yes, he always had been, and he could shoot with both feet too.
He used to pretend that Dulwich Park was Crystal Palace.
Well the thing was, you see, the lake was the centre of Dulwich Park and quite a wide part was full of sand for riding horses. A lot of the sand used to be blown over onto the path making it gritty. It was as near to the track at Crystal Palace as you were going to get. I ran two seasons up there for the Grove Vale School. The London County Council used to give us one day every year, where we had our train ticket, and all the schools around south and north came up. And it was always the South against the North. And on two occasions we had the shield for one year. I ran in the short distance and I always ran the tail end of the relay. We won the shield for one year and we won the shield for either a quarter of a year or half a year. Again my father would come up. When Edgar was at Goodrich Road my father used to take him up to Dulwich Park. But I don't think he needed very much practise.
Did he ever mention any of the players that he admired? Did he come home and say I’ve seen an Egyptian player at Dulwich Hamlet called Hegazi and I want to play like him?
Oh. They were boys, as I say, and I’ve never known anything like it. There was never any friction between all the brothers. And no doubt any talk like that and Edgar would have been joining in. Probably my age group round about then, but I can’t actually remember. Sport was with him there. There was no friction. He played and that was that. We accepted that he was good but there was never any flare ups.
When you were children did you go to Sunday School?
Did Edgar? Well, chapel. When we were in Landcroft Road there was a big chapel on the corner of Lordship Lane, and that’s where my father used to push us all into chapel. That would have been the Sunday School where they would have gone to. But half the time they never went (laughs). But as I say, I was very young and I wouldn’t have known much about it. Now I was the first girl after five boys and because of that my mother called me Dorothy - ‘A gift from God’ - which I think, as she got to know me more, she must have had different feelings (laughs) and wished she’d given me a different name. My father always said that I was more difficult because I resented the attention I got. I was so loved by them you see. You can just imagine, suddenly a female coming in (laughs). I loved them all, all my brothers.
Were your parents English?
Oh yes. Well my mother was more Welsh and my father had Scotch, and he was always saying “wee lad” and things like that. And I remember spending holidays with my grand-father and grandmother. My grandmother was as straight as a pole and very, very strict, whereas my grandfather was the opposite. Dad took after his mother (laughs). No nonsense. But he had a sense of humour now and again. He needed something for that (laughter).
Your mother was called Rosa Mary.
Yes that’s right. My grandmother wanted her named Rosemary, like the flower. And the registrar said, you can’t do that. When she’s in a school in a class of sixty children and her name is called out like that... and he wouldn’t. So she said, well I’ll name her Rosa Mary and I’ll call her Rosemary. But she never was, she was always called Rosa. But that was that. And then the younger daughter was named Daisy and the other one was Lily. And when the boy came along he was sweet William (laughs). You get some queer forebears don’t you.
And your father was very strict.
There were groups you see, Reg, Fred and Edgar would have been the three in the top group. Then Cecil, Harold, myself and my brother Billy, we came in the second group. That was the bulk of four (laughs). And we were never allowed to play out during holidays and roam streets or anything like that. It was terrible you know, because he’d line us up. There would be myself, my younger brother and the two behind and this would have been with the elders as well. And we would walk. We were allowed to have a tram ride up the hill to Camberwell Green, then we got out and we walked again. Finally we would go to a part of London where we would be bored stiff. Then he would sit us on a seat, probably outside one of the public houses where he’d go in and have a drink, and we’d have a bottle of lemonade and a fruit bun. And that was it. Then we would walk home and all the time we were walking it was, “Lift your feet up, put your head back.” And to this day I curse him every time I walk up the hill. I find I’m still pushing my shoulders back. Of course in those days he mended all the boys boots and the poor devils had hobnails where they all stuck in. And those huge boots must have been jolly heavy. I was allowed button boots. But he’d walk by your side. Of course there wasn’t much traffic back then.
So he repaired the boots. Were you a poor family?
Well, with eleven in the family we knew the value of a farthing. We did. To this day you can’t get out of it. My husband used to say, “We’re not on the breadline yet.” I’d make things out of old sheets, things like that. We were all raised that way. There was always good food and a clean home. When it was time for, say, all the bedding to be renewed, I used to have to go and get unbleached calico for my mother. That was all boiled in the copper and come out white. After that she would make measure, and then all the sheets were made. And so we were all brought up to value things. We never had bikes and presents and things like that. But as far as I know all of us were avid readers. We were encouraged to. My mum was terrified of thunderstorms and we all used to be pushed into a cupboard. And of course being between two hills the wretched storm used to keep on going round and round, and I’d be in there trying to read a book. I know my father had the newspaper and that was always read. And we all belonged to the Dulwich Library.
Did you get the South London Press when Edgar's name was appearing in it each week?
I think now we all took it for granted, his talent and everything. We just accepted it. The sadness of it all is to think that I'm the only one of the family that has been able to show appreciation of what has been done.
I spoke to Ken Kail, your nephew...
Fred’s boy.
… a couple of months before he died.
I couldn’t understand that at all. I had not been very well. Only three months before [the opening of Edgar Kail Way] I had bronchial asthma and I was just getting over the second lot, and I didn’t know anything about this at all. How old would he have been? He had retired so he would be over sixty five. Was he able to tell you anything?
One or two things. I only spent a few minutes with him.
His father was the one. Ken would have been the one who had spoken to his father most about Edgar.
Then I went to see Doris King the daughter of Reg.
She might not have heard so much.
She told me the story about Edgar climbing into the garden with his Father’s shoes on.
Yes (laughter). All these things went on. It was us against our father (laughter). It was nothing vicious or anything like that. At the Sunday lunches when I used to hear certain episodes come up, it was always... well whether it was one to my father or two to us I don’t know!
Did your father own a vehicle?
Oh no no. Edgar didn’t have a car either until, probably when he moved to Overhill Road. Maybe then. Well nobody did in those days. You walked to everywhere.
Now, Edgar’s football kit. Did he have to buy his own shorts and socks?
Well I suppose he did because he had the shorts made. He always had a v-shape in the side to give the knee a bit. And he was very, very particular about everything. Oh yes. There were no handouts.
He worked for Booths.
That was in Scotland.
What about in England?
I don’t know. My youngest brother Ken who died just recently, he also worked for the whiskey people in England. Whether Edgar changed and went to Booths I don’t know, but he spent the latter part of his life up in Scotland. He was quite happy. He joined a golf club with Colin. Funnily enough Colin went to boarding school where rugby was played, and Edgar, “Oh!” he says, “Rugby!” You see he had gone over to rugby (laughter). I shouldn't have told you that. That was towards the latter part of his life. In fact I think Colin represented England schoolboys at rugby.
Did anyone keep a scrap book of Edgar’s career or any memorabilia?
Well there were a lot of things that were lost through the war. I know my father made a glass case which had his two schoolboy international caps and all his medals were there. If I remember rightly, my sister - who lost her husband so she stayed on at Nutfield Road with my mother - she would have had a lot of things that I didn’t have. I had his international caps, which I gave to one of my brothers who came to spend a holiday with me. I thought I was doing the right thing letting them be in the name of Kail because he had two boys with the Kail name. I could get them back I suppose. But there are some medals and caps going up to my daughter. She’s sending them down to Callum my grandson and he is going to present them personally to the club. So if there is anything that he has that the club would like to keep you can. And that’s as much as I know. Also, he has found a photograph of Edgar wearing one of the schoolboy caps. That will be along with the caps and medals. There might be a bit more, I don’t know. As I say there was no pomp or anything like that. He would have been floored by the others (laughs). There never was. And he took jokes. We had a very old grandfather clock that stood in the hall and it only had one hand, it must have got knocked in some way or other, and every morning he would come down in his dressing gown and try to work out the time. And just when he thought he got it the eight o’clock hooter used to go (laughs). We all used to laugh (more laughter). He never did find out. There were scenes like that all the time.
A happy family.
Well, I never saw Edgar in a temper, never. But out of all the boys I was very fond of Cecil, he was the second eldest over me. Now he was a musician, and he wrote his own music for the piano. He worked for one of the big insurance companies up in London that ran a football team. And they played the second Hamlet team, and his side lost twelve nil. When we all got up on Sunday morning he was still upstairs and I felt so sorry for him and I didn’t quite know what to do, knowing what terrible things my brothers would do. And they took him up twelve slices of bread and butter (laughs). My poor mother, she said, “You shouldn’t do this.” “Serves him right, he should have got up before.” (laughs). Oh there was no mercy. But funnily enough Edgar was playing away and evidently he didn’t come home that night. But when he did come home and he heard about it he was very, very annoyed to think they had done that.
Would they have done it to Edgar if he had lost twelve nil?
Oh yes they would have done. We all got the same treatment. You had to mind your Ps and Qs.
Do you remember any of the other Dulwich Hamlet players?
Coleman, he was a wonderful goalkeeper. Now Edgar wasn’t centre forward he was inside right. Who was the centre forward?
Bill Davis.
Well who was one of the wingmen. Very quick. He always wore his jersey right the way down to his knees. I always used to think that he was jealous of Edgar somehow or other.
Did he play next to Edgar or on the other wing?
No, next to him.
George Shipway? Leslie Morrish?
Well he was in the thick of Dulwich Hamlet then. He was very quick. He wouldn’t have been centre forward. No. He was on the same wing as Edgar was. He always wore his jersey right the way down to his knees (laughter). Funnily enough I would recognise his face.
When did you last see Edgar?
I had given up my flat and moved my furniture into 13 Nutfield Road because we were going up to Cumberland to stay. My mother was just getting over my father dying. My sister was not well with two young children and he came down. And I presume that was the last time I saw him, just to say farewell. And I think it must have been about that time that he went to Glasgow. Yes that would have been about the time I'm sure of that. I can't tell you much about anything that happened up there. Its funny you know. I think if I had seven sisters I would have known everything. But when the brothers go, and they get married, well its just mundane sort of information then. He came down to stay with my sister in Kent because Colin was getting married and it was upsetting him. He was well in his seventies then. And when we heard that he was staying with her, I wrote to Edgar and said before you go back come and stay with us. My husband was going to go down to fetch him. But he wrote back and evidently Colin was expected the next day, otherwise he would have come here. And I think about two years after that he died. So he must have died in his late seventies. Because my sister’s son – the one who is sending these other things on to my daughter - said he was very tottery when he came down to them. He got very big, probably the whiskey helped that (laughs). And then we lost all track of Colin as well afterwards. I looked at it that he was married to a very nice girl, my sister said. And I just thought good luck to him, he was leading his own life. But then he lost his wife soon after. But he married again, and that I’ve only found out since all the recent interest in Edgar.
How did you feel when you heard that the road leading to Dulwich Hamlet’s ground was to be named in honour of your brother?
Well I was absolutely over the moon. I didn’t know what to do. This was the early part of the year and when I have these bronchial attacks I can’t shake them off like I used to. They go on for about a month. And that is why I wasn’t there. It worried me terribly to think that I hadn’t written. The thing was, I put it all in the hands of my grandson. I said to him “Do what you can.” My daughter came down about that time and they tried to contact my nephew, the son of my youngest brother, he’s up in Scotland. But they couldn’t get hold of him. And Harold’s boy – that’s the one that has got the two caps - they couldn’t seem to contact him either. They were the only ones I knew with the name of Kail. I guessed that Ken, the one that you spoke to, would go, and Doris. As I said before, if there had been seven sisters I would have known a lot more. I just can’t be sure of the dates, that’s the only thing. If you can work that one out when my sister in law died, Colin was either about eleven or twelve. And she died in Kings College Hospital, that’s where she would have gone. Now her family name was Ramsay. Her father lived opposite in Tintagel Crescent. The house that her family lived in was right next door to the back way of the cinema. And Edgar lived opposite.
Did local people know this? Did he get admirers knocking on his door?
I think so. In fact, as I said, when I was transferred to Grove Vale School we had a wonderful English teacher. And she said, “Now I want you all to imagine you are writing a book.” Well anyway, whatever I wrote must have stood out because she wrote it all on the blackboard. And one of the masters came round to see it, and she said, "”There she is, Dorothy Kail.” “Kail!” he said, “Kail!” (Laughter) Never mind about me. And that was typical. But, how shall I say, we never traded on his fame. My brothers never did. They wouldn't have done that. My father might have done. He might have done.
Were all his medals and caps on show at home? Were they looked after?
They were beautiful. I had them cleaned before my brother took them away. They were velvet in portions of red and cream with a silver tassel. They were beautiful. I’m still going to try and get them. If the club would like what is going to be sent to them, then I shall write to him and ask him whether he will return them. I’m sure he would. They were really lovely. They were the only two caps that I had. I didn’t have any of his medals. They were all in a case in my mother’s home when I got married.
He had twenty one amateur caps and three full caps...
Oh, he had no end. Like those we called the soft ones. Oh yes with all the dates on the fabric. Anyway you will be getting some of the caps so you will know. My father made a box and that was on show in the parlour as it was called in those days. Did you like the caricature?
Yes it was fantastic.
I’ve tried awfully hard. I haven’t been able to respond as much as you would have liked. I’ll probably remember more when you’ve gone.
You’ve been a great help.
